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If you don't hit the green in regulation, and get the ball holed in par or birdie, then it's an up/down. Up/down for bogey doesn't count. BTW, sandies work for both greenside and fairway bunkers as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for the post. I noticed you are from Denver, I just moved to Highlands Ranch from Florida. What courses do you recommend around here to play on a regular basis? I would love to play courses I can get on for under $30 with a cart, do you have any insight on some of the best values in the area?

Oh right on! First, let me say, welcome! Being just outside of Highlands Ranch, there's not much around here that's $30 or less with a cart. I'd recommend you get a South Suburban district card, because then South Suburban and Lone Tree (my 2 home courses BTW and my personal favorites) and then you can play there on weekdays for $32 and $46 respectively, and $36 and $60 on weekends (excluding cart). I haven't played there yet, hopefully this summer, but Highlands Ranch Golf Links is $42 on weekdays and $52 on weekends, and I've heard it's a really good course. The Links is an executive course, but it looks like as a Highlands Ranch resident you get on there for $26 or $32. Again it's just not the cheapest area to play golf. If you're willing to drive up to Denver and play a course that I don't think is as good as the ones I listed, you could play somewhere like Wellshire, Willis Case, Overland, City Park for what you're looking for. (DO NOT PLAY KENNEDY!) Head just a bit west to Arrowhead though. You're looking at over $100 to play there, but man is it worth it.

All authoritative sources I've seen define an up and down as starting from just off the green (either in the rough or green side bunker). This is important. It means if you are 120 yards out in the fairway with 2 strokes left to make par, even if you make par (or hole out for birdie), it's not considered an up and down. When EXACTLY are you considered beyond "around the green" is not defined.

There is a difference of opinion as to whether or not saving par has something to do with the equation. A few insist that you have to lay around the green where getting up and down in two strokes would save par in order for it to count as a made or missed up and down.

However the PGA Tour puts no such restriction on the stats they keep. They recognize any time a player's ball is found just off the green as an up and down opportunity and score the result as a made or miss depending on whether or not the player gets the ball into the hole in 2 strokes or less or not.

If it's good enough for the PGA, it's good enough for me. After all, at the end of the day aren't we interested in comparing how we perform vs. the pros apples to apples?

EXAMPLES (using the PGA's definition)

Situation: Lying 120 yards out in the fairway
Ruling: Not even an up and down opportunity at this point

Situation: Ball in green side bunker regardless of strokes played
Ruling: Up and down opportunity

Situation: Ball in rough by the green regardless of strokes played
Ruling: Up and down opportunity

Situation: Chipped in from the rough just off the green
Ruling: Up and down made

Situation: From green side bunker pitch out and 1-putt
Ruling: Both an Up and Down and Sandie or Sand Save is scored as made regardless of the score

Situation: Holed out from drop zone 100 yards from green after putting it in the water
Ruling: Not an up and down, but congratulations!

I agree with you completely Mark. It's often a judgment call. How about this one?

I duff a second shot to a par four and I end up 50 yards from the green. I fail to get it in the hole in two strokes, missed up and down or no up and down opportunity? If I get lucky and do get it up and down from 50 yards, up and down made?

Or, I duff the second, and leave the ball 100 yards from the green. Up and down opportunity? If I do get the ball in the hole in two strokes, up and down made?

Could all birdies be defined as up and down made?

Veddy interresting...

Thanks man, we love it out here. Those are some great suggestions. I will look into the players card

This morning I found Plum Creek in Castle Pines (about 20 minutes away) at $30 with cart on GolfNow Hot Deals. That is a weekday tee time. Have you ever played there? I checked out their website, they don't list their green fees, but it's a Pete Dye design and looks pretty nice for $30 all-in.

We played Arrowhead in 2008 when we were out here for a wedding, it's still one of the best courses we have ever played. We will play there there when we have people in town, but unfortunately I'm not enough of a baller to make it my home course. I can't wait to get back out there. I'm surprised that course doesn't get more national recognition.

Thanks again for the suggestions and insight.

Thanks for researching the definition and your examples. It seems redundant to me that sand saves are automatically an u/d, but I guess I can accept that. Now I just have to get used to tracking one more stat while I'm on the course.

I'll let Mark weigh-in on what he thinks too, but if an u/d is judged based on the same parameters as sand saves, your example would be similar to a fairway bunker vs. greenside bunker, per his definition. By PGA definition, you cannot get a sand save from a fairway bunker (even though I was tracking them that way for years). Based on that, a shot from 50 yards out would no be eligible for u/d consideration.

That said, it all comes down to your own judgement and how you want to track the statistic. There's no hard and fast rule for u/d unlike something like GIR, so it's up to you on how you want to score it.

First one, could be in the grey area of defining "around the green". Second one, no up and down opportunity. That's too far out and is made pretty clear by most authoritive sources.
Third one, no not all birdies. Only those that start with the ball "around the green". Most birdies are decent length approach shots onto the green and a one-putt. Those would not qualify.

I guess we are supposed to consider sand saves as a special sub-category of up and downs.

Interestingly, the PGA definition is most helpful with high handicap players.

Think about it. A high handicap player is rarely sitting around (but off) the green with a chance to get up and down for par or better. So unless you used the PGA definition that player would not have very few up and down opportunities and not have a very good idea of how well they actually do at getting in the hole in 2 or less from that situation.

Huh...then I've been WAY too hard on myself. I use a simplified formula.

No GIR + make par or better = made up and down
No GIR + bogey or worse = missed up and down
...which is probably why my Scrambling % is the same as my U/D %

I think we talked about this about a year ago here. I learned that a sand save and a sandie are different:

Sand Save = Greenside bunker out + 1 putt in regardless of score

Sandie = Sand out (greenside or fairway) + score of par or better...this is the one I track and have yet to make one.

That's a great way to define it.