Golfing By The Rules & Others Not

EddieGarrison Professional Champion
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I'm sure we have all heard this from someone else that plays golf. "Oh yeah, I shoot in the mid 80's [or insert score here] when I play". After you talk to them about your latest round or your golf game. You ask them to join you on the course and you soon realize why they seem to think they shoot that score. When they are in the rough they "fluff" up their lie. If they hit it OB off the tee they either go up and drop the ball where it looked like it went out or they just hit another one and donâ€™t add any strokes to their score. I recently played with a gentleman I talked to in a restaurant after a recent round and I talked him in to going out and playing a round with us. He claimed he shot in the low 80's from the same tees we used. Funny how it all came forward how he does this. Each time he was in the rough he would try to "improve" his lie if he thought we were not looking. On one tee box, he hit 2 drives OB. On the first one he said "Guess I better get up there and drop". In which I quickly told him he was hitting three from the tee again. He didn't like that at all. And I explained to him that was the proper rules of hitting a tee shot OB. The round went like this all day. Us trying to tell him what the rules were and it didn't matter if he was behind a tree he couldn't move the ball from behind it just to get a better shot at the green. I won't go into the entire round but Mr. "Low 80's" shot a a nice 107 on the round. And of course he offered up the normal excuses. I didn't putt well today, my driver was off etc. etc. No, playing by the rules is just tougher than hacking around with your buddies. Just wondering if any of guys & gals have ever ran into anyone like this? I always play by the rules when I play. I play in tournaments and they are strictly by the rule book. Besides, if you don't play by the rules, how do you expect to get better?
MikeNomgi Professional Champion
# 31 4/16/2011 6:01:46 PM
Of that 20% or so (your mileage may vary) there is another possibility. Sometimes they don't know the rules. I'm not saying this is the case with most of these folks, but there is a percentage that doesn't know, and that makes all the difference in the world. Because I'm a pretty good player, when I get thrown in with one or more players where this is the case, I'll sometimes get asked "what are my options", or "what's the rule". I generally don't offer when I'm in a group of people I've just met. But I will answer questions. Let's face it, there are a bunch of folks out there that aren't ever going to compete for anything. Most players don't even keep a handicap. They are just out there for the fun...and I'm fine with that. I'm with you, Mark. Well said.
heartotexas Professional Champion
# 32 4/16/2011 7:37:27 PM
That is how I play too. I will hit the ball as it lies, or pick up and move to the next hole. I may have misquoted in an earlier message, you have to hole out 13 of 18 holes for an acceptable score under the USGA (this makes the number of x(n)'s 5 holes per round, not 6). I think it is a waste not to play by the rules. It is up to you if you ever play in a tournament or not, playing with Handicaps will make it interesting because although your AGS does not change, your tournament score will lessen if you have a higher handicap. Perhaps you misunderstood. I play by the rules, I simply don't post a really bad card because I see no point as my handicap will never be used for a "competition" round. Besides, I would say my over 90 rounds are 1 in 10, except for the first few rounds of the year after winter. I consistently play in the mid to high 80's, and those are the stats I want to look at to try to get below 80. 5 years ago, I was lucky to break 100, so I'm thinking my "method" is working for me. If someone is going to play in a tournament or competition round where handicaps are figured into the scoring, they should be posting every time they play, horrible rounds and all. I understand, I was just trying to say that you may change your mind and want to play in a tournament of some type some day. If you never report your really bad rounds, isn't this scoring record manipulation in a way? True you do not post rounds where you do not play by the Rules of Golf, but just because of one hole or so seems really quirky to me. I would hope that tournament players post every round, but sandbaggers must do that too. Again, I think you misunderstand. I do my very best to play by the rules of golf. And those occassional horrible score cards are the result of playing by the rules. It's simply that the handicap is really unimportant to me, in fact, I may not renew the paid membership on here just to keep a handicap. It was convenient when it was free. I'm a little too old to change my mind and suddenly take up competition golf. As Mike and Mark said, "Let's face it, there are a bunch of folks out there that aren't ever going to compete for anything. Most players don't even keep a handicap. They are just out there for the fun...and I'm fine with that."
heartotexas Professional Champion
# 33 4/16/2011 7:43:44 PM
Besides, seems to me, if I post only my good scores and never my bad scores, that means I have a lower handicap than I actually have. Which means I get less strokes when playing with a low handicap. It seems the ones competition golfers would get peeved about would be those with 25 handicaps that go out and shoot 69 instead of those with a 12 that go out and shoot 90. Matters not to me since I dont play competition golf. Not even "friendly" wagers on the course. Also one of those oddballs that thinks drinking beer (lots of it) is counterproductive to playing good golf....:)
TerenceNesbit Professional
# 34 4/17/2011 4:10:34 PM
Besides, seems to me, if I post only my good scores and never my bad scores, that means I have a lower handicap than I actually have. Which means I get less strokes when playing with a low handicap. It seems the ones competition golfers would get peeved about would be those with 25 handicaps that go out and shoot 69 instead of those with a 12 that go out and shoot 90. Matters not to me since I dont play competition golf. Not even "friendly" wagers on the course. Also one of those oddballs that thinks drinking beer (lots of it) is counterproductive to playing good golf....:) Well, the problem is more with those that think you should be at one level, based on your scoring record, and then you go out and shoot a much higher score. If you haven't read the main post that complained of this, well. The HI is an average, it is an assumption that a person can play to a better level than they have shown (the .96 change in computing handicap index is for this reason). And to be fair, the USGA does admit that exceptional tournament scores do happen (so the 25 hi'er shooting 69 is not that odd, but not that common either). If you shoot your average, or there about, it would seem to me that people would have less reason to complain (or close to it).
TerenceNesbit Professional
# 35 4/17/2011 4:15:36 PM
Getting beat by better golfers is what makes me dig harder.Getting pencil whipped just ruins my day.Im with most of you with the exception of tourny or bets such as dogfights and low ball matches.Yes tourny wise its a miracle how fast the score adds up when someone elese is keeping score.The same can be said for the sandbaggers who win these mini tournys often,whom shoots those miracle rounds like 79,83 and etc with a HC of 25 or 30.What adds to insult is the directors dont curb this for fear of loosing an entry. Then that is on the competition, especially if the person that may have sandbagged has played the tournament more than once and is always, or is often, in contention. Maybe even just noticing the score during the days of the competition, if it is a multiple round competition. The tournament has to notice things like that and protect the competitors.
Mark Simmons Legend
# 36 4/17/2011 6:08:18 PM
And to be fair, the USGA does admit that exceptional tournament scores do happen (so the 25 hi'er shooting 69 is not that odd, but not that common either). Ah no. The odds of that happening are astronomical, unless the 25 handicapper shot this score on a par 54 executive course. The USGA discusses this at: www.usga.org/playing/handicaps.. called Odds of Shooting An Exceptional Tournament Score. The USGA's stance on this is the if this were ever to happen, the players handicap should be "adjusted". Unfortunately, I can't tell you how many strokes it should be adjusted because your example was so far beyond the realm of possibility that the USGA charts don't even go there.
heartotexas Professional Champion
# 37 4/17/2011 6:11:10 PM
Good thing I don't choose my golfing partners based on their handicap. I could care less if I am playing with a high handicapper or a low handicapper. For that matter, I don't care if a playing partner takes a mulligan, an illegal drop and doesn't put in on their scorecard. Once again, I aint playing for money or competition. I don't gloat about a good scorecard by trying to "lord" it over someone who shoots a higher score. Never played with anyone who "complains" about someone's handicap. All I really care about is having a good time golfing, getting and giving some encouragement to/from my golfing partners and generally being an enjoyable person to spend 3-4 hours with on the golf course. Gambling and drinking excessively on the course are detractors from me having a good time. If anyone on here is the kind of golfer who gets annoyed because of my attitude in this matter or my opinion about handicaps is free to defriend me.
TerenceNesbit Professional
# 38 4/18/2011 11:52:04 AM
And to be fair, the USGA does admit that exceptional tournament scores do happen (so the 25 hi'er shooting 69 is not that odd, but not that common either). Ah no. The odds of that happening are astronomical, unless the 25 handicapper shot this score on a par 54 executive course. The USGA discusses this at: www.usga.org/playing/handicaps.. called Odds of Shooting An Exceptional Tournament Score. The USGA's stance on this is the if this were ever to happen, the players handicap should be "adjusted". Unfortunately, I can't tell you how many strokes it should be adjusted because your example was so far beyond the realm of possibility that the USGA charts don't even go there. I agree, but the fact that the USGA has a rule concerning exceptional tournament scores, 10-3, must mean that it is remotely possible. This is all that I was saying. If the differential is 14.0 or greater, the reduction is 13.7, based on the number of T-scores in the player's scoring record. So if they play that well during tournaments and not otherwise, using the tournament formula (which counts for one, or more, of the differentials in the revised handicap index, but all the scores are never used), then they still should have their HI lowered.
TerenceNesbit Professional
# 39 4/18/2011 11:54:25 AM
Good thing I don't choose my golfing partners based on their handicap. I could care less if I am playing with a high handicapper or a low handicapper. For that matter, I don't care if a playing partner takes a mulligan, an illegal drop and doesn't put in on their scorecard. Once again, I aint playing for money or competition. I don't gloat about a good scorecard by trying to "lord" it over someone who shoots a higher score. Never played with anyone who "complains" about someone's handicap. All I really care about is having a good time golfing, getting and giving some encouragement to/from my golfing partners and generally being an enjoyable person to spend 3-4 hours with on the golf course. Gambling and drinking excessively on the course are detractors from me having a good time. If anyone on here is the kind of golfer who gets annoyed because of my attitude in this matter or my opinion about handicaps is free to defriend me. Some people do, or what their playing partner's say is their handicap index, and then they might not complain during the round but will complain to others that they play with or even just talk about golf with. If they complain about the other player's game, it may be based on their talking about their golf game, which is the same thing, if you ask me.
TerenceNesbit Professional
# 40 4/18/2011 12:58:06 PM
Question is are you competitive or not.to each his own.All rules or not should be adhered to according to situation and or players agreement.I play with a lot of beginners whom cant dig a of a trap much less a divot so who cares.Without an excavotor their day can be frustrurating.If you are a competitor or play some tournys then the rules should apply including winter when the course ot tourny officials state so.Take advantage,even Jack has bragged on that subject.For just golfing pleasure again who cares wack at it cause you pay the bucks hit it more instead of less.Now why would any competitor not know the basic rules,seems thats part of of the game learning process.Heart of Texas{NOTE} If they dont like our attitude then change theirs.LOL I'd love to play in tournaments but have not done so as of yet. I think that it is the whole point of playing sports in general (If you are good enough to play any other sport you would want to at least try out for a team, wouldn't you? This does not mean turn pro in all instances, it just means competing). I know the rules, but the idea of the rules being created is that they want everyone to follow them at all times. Do you add or subtract rules in other sports where the stats count? Just a question.
heartotexas Professional Champion
# 41 4/18/2011 1:40:50 PM
Question is are you competitive or not.to each his own.All rules or not should be adhered to according to situation and or players agreement.I play with a lot of beginners whom cant dig a of a trap much less a divot so who cares.Without an excavotor their day can be frustrurating.If you are a competitor or play some tournys then the rules should apply including winter when the course ot tourny officials state so.Take advantage,even Jack has bragged on that subject.For just golfing pleasure again who cares wack at it cause you pay the bucks hit it more instead of less.Now why would any competitor not know the basic rules,seems thats part of of the game learning process.Heart of Texas{NOTE} If they dont like our attitude then change theirs.LOL I'd love to play in tournaments but have not done so as of yet. I think that it is the whole point of playing sports in general (If you are good enough to play any other sport you would want to at least try out for a team, wouldn't you? This does not mean turn pro in all instances, it just means competing). I know the rules, but the idea of the rules being created is that they want everyone to follow them at all times. Do you add or subtract rules in other sports where the stats count? Just a question. You of course forget about people who play to compete with themselves. I continue to play and try to get better, not for the sake of competition with anyone, but simply for the sake of doing better against myself. Rules do not have to be in place just for competition. You have rules in solitaire, but you don't play it by the rules just to compete with someone, you play it that way because the rules provide the framework for how it is to be played. From a competitive standpoint, golf, unlike basketball, penalizes both individuals and teams for rules violations. It is impossible in golf to cheat (break the rules) and have it work out in your favor. This is really a silly discussion. If you play in competition golf, follow the rules and you will be more likely to succeed. If you don't play in competition golf, follow the rules, because that's how the game is played. EOD.

Professional Champion

147 Views 45 Replies 1 Like

I'm sure we have all heard this from someone else that plays golf. "Oh yeah, I shoot in the mid 80's [or insert score here] when I play". After you talk to them about your latest round or your golf game.

You ask them to join you on the course and you soon realize why they seem to think they shoot that score. When they are in the rough they "fluff" up their lie. If they hit it OB off the tee they either go up and drop the ball where it looked like it went out or they just hit another one and donâ€™t add any strokes to their score.

I recently played with a gentleman I talked to in a restaurant after a recent round and I talked him in to going out and playing a round with us. He claimed he shot in the low 80's from the same tees we used.

Funny how it all came forward how he does this. Each time he was in the rough he would try to "improve" his lie if he thought we were not looking. On one tee box, he hit 2 drives OB. On the first one he said "Guess I better get up there and drop".

In which I quickly told him he was hitting three from the tee again. He didn't like that at all. And I explained to him that was the proper rules of hitting a tee shot OB.

The round went like this all day. Us trying to tell him what the rules were and it didn't matter if he was behind a tree he couldn't move the ball from behind it just to get a better shot at the green.

I won't go into the entire round but Mr. "Low 80's" shot a a nice 107 on the round. And of course he offered up the normal excuses. I didn't putt well today, my driver was off etc. etc.

No, playing by the rules is just tougher than hacking around with your buddies. Just wondering if any of guys & gals have ever ran into anyone like this?

I always play by the rules when I play. I play in tournaments and they are strictly by the rule book. Besides, if you don't play by the rules, how do you expect to get better?

MikeNomgi

Professional Champion

# 31 4/16/2011 6:01:46 PM

Of that 20% or so (your mileage may vary) there is another possibility. Sometimes they don't know the rules. I'm not saying this is the case with most of these folks, but there is a percentage that doesn't know, and that makes all the difference in the world.

Because I'm a pretty good player, when I get thrown in with one or more players where this is the case, I'll sometimes get asked "what are my options", or "what's the rule".

I generally don't offer when I'm in a group of people I've just met. But I will answer questions.

Let's face it, there are a bunch of folks out there that aren't ever going to compete for anything. Most players don't even keep a handicap. They are just out there for the fun...and I'm fine with that.

I'm with you, Mark. Well said.

heartotexas

Professional Champion

# 32 4/16/2011 7:37:27 PM

That is how I play too. I will hit the ball as it lies, or pick up and move to the next hole. I may have misquoted in an earlier message, you have to hole out 13 of 18 holes for an acceptable score under the USGA (this makes the number of x(n)'s 5 holes per round, not 6).

I think it is a waste not to play by the rules. It is up to you if you ever play in a tournament or not, playing with Handicaps will make it interesting because although your AGS does not change, your tournament score will lessen if you have a higher handicap.

Perhaps you misunderstood. I play by the rules, I simply don't post a really bad card because I see no point as my handicap will never be used for a "competition" round. Besides, I would say my over 90 rounds are 1 in 10, except for the first few rounds of the year after winter. I consistently play in the mid to high 80's, and those are the stats I want to look at to try to get below 80. 5 years ago, I was lucky to break 100, so I'm thinking my "method" is working for me.

If someone is going to play in a tournament or competition round where handicaps are figured into the scoring, they should be posting every time they play, horrible rounds and all.

I understand, I was just trying to say that you may change your mind and want to play in a tournament of some type some day. If you never report your really bad rounds, isn't this scoring record manipulation in a way? True you do not post rounds where you do not play by the Rules of Golf, but just because of one hole or so seems really quirky to me.
I would hope that tournament players post every round, but sandbaggers must do that too.

Again, I think you misunderstand. I do my very best to play by the rules of golf. And those occassional horrible score cards are the result of playing by the rules. It's simply that the handicap is really unimportant to me, in fact, I may not renew the paid membership on here just to keep a handicap. It was convenient when it was free.
I'm a little too old to change my mind and suddenly take up competition golf. As Mike and Mark said, "Let's face it, there are a bunch of folks out there that aren't ever going to compete for anything. Most players don't even keep a handicap. They are just out there for the fun...and I'm fine with that."

heartotexas

Professional Champion

# 33 4/16/2011 7:43:44 PM

Besides, seems to me, if I post only my good scores and never my bad scores, that means I have a lower handicap than I actually have. Which means I get less strokes when playing with a low handicap. It seems the ones competition golfers would get peeved about would be those with 25 handicaps that go out and shoot 69 instead of those with a 12 that go out and shoot 90.
Matters not to me since I dont play competition golf. Not even "friendly" wagers on the course. Also one of those oddballs that thinks drinking beer (lots of it) is counterproductive to playing good golf....:)

TerenceNesbit

Professional

# 34 4/17/2011 4:10:34 PM

Besides, seems to me, if I post only my good scores and never my bad scores, that means I have a lower handicap than I actually have. Which means I get less strokes when playing with a low handicap. It seems the ones competition golfers would get peeved about would be those with 25 handicaps that go out and shoot 69 instead of those with a 12 that go out and shoot 90.
Matters not to me since I dont play competition golf. Not even "friendly" wagers on the course. Also one of those oddballs that thinks drinking beer (lots of it) is counterproductive to playing good golf....:)

Well, the problem is more with those that think you should be at one level, based on your scoring record, and then you go out and shoot a much higher score. If you haven't read the main post that complained of this, well. The HI is an average, it is an assumption that a person can play to a better level than they have shown (the .96 change in computing handicap index is for this reason).
And to be fair, the USGA does admit that exceptional tournament scores do happen (so the 25 hi'er shooting 69 is not that odd, but not that common either). If you shoot your average, or there about, it would seem to me that people would have less reason to complain (or close to it).

TerenceNesbit

Professional

# 35 4/17/2011 4:15:36 PM

Getting beat by better golfers is what makes me dig harder.Getting pencil whipped just ruins my day.Im with most of you with the exception of tourny or bets such as dogfights and low ball matches.Yes tourny wise its a miracle how fast the score adds up when someone elese is keeping score.The same can be said for the sandbaggers who win these mini tournys often,whom shoots those miracle rounds like 79,83 and etc with a HC of 25 or 30.What adds to insult is the directors dont curb this for fear of loosing an entry.

Then that is on the competition, especially if the person that may have sandbagged has played the tournament more than once and is always, or is often, in contention. Maybe even just noticing the score during the days of the competition, if it is a multiple round competition. The tournament has to notice things like that and protect the competitors.

Mark Simmons

Legend

# 36 4/17/2011 6:08:18 PM

And to be fair, the USGA does admit that exceptional tournament scores do happen (so the 25 hi'er shooting 69 is not that odd, but not that common either).

Ah no. The odds of that happening are astronomical, unless the 25 handicapper shot this score on a par 54 executive course. The USGA discusses this at: www.usga.org/playing/handicaps.. called Odds of Shooting An Exceptional Tournament Score.

The USGA's stance on this is the if this were ever to happen, the players handicap should be "adjusted". Unfortunately, I can't tell you how many strokes it should be adjusted because your example was so far beyond the realm of possibility that the USGA charts don't even go there.

heartotexas

Professional Champion

# 37 4/17/2011 6:11:10 PM

Good thing I don't choose my golfing partners based on their handicap. I could care less if I am playing with a high handicapper or a low handicapper. For that matter, I don't care if a playing partner takes a mulligan, an illegal drop and doesn't put in on their scorecard. Once again, I aint playing for money or competition. I don't gloat about a good scorecard by trying to "lord" it over someone who shoots a higher score.
Never played with anyone who "complains" about someone's handicap. All I really care about is having a good time golfing, getting and giving some encouragement to/from my golfing partners and generally being an enjoyable person to spend 3-4 hours with on the golf course. Gambling and drinking excessively on the course are detractors from me having a good time.

If anyone on here is the kind of golfer who gets annoyed because of my attitude in this matter or my opinion about handicaps is free to defriend me.

TerenceNesbit

Professional

# 38 4/18/2011 11:52:04 AM

And to be fair, the USGA does admit that exceptional tournament scores do happen (so the 25 hi'er shooting 69 is not that odd, but not that common either).

Ah no. The odds of that happening are astronomical, unless the 25 handicapper shot this score on a par 54 executive course. The USGA discusses this at: www.usga.org/playing/handicaps.. called Odds of Shooting An Exceptional Tournament Score.

The USGA's stance on this is the if this were ever to happen, the players handicap should be "adjusted". Unfortunately, I can't tell you how many strokes it should be adjusted because your example was so far beyond the realm of possibility that the USGA charts don't even go there.

I agree, but the fact that the USGA has a rule concerning exceptional tournament scores, 10-3, must mean that it is remotely possible. This is all that I was saying. If the differential is 14.0 or greater, the reduction is 13.7, based on the number of T-scores in the player's scoring record. So if they play that well during tournaments and not otherwise, using the tournament formula (which counts for one, or more, of the differentials in the revised handicap index, but all the scores are never used), then they still should have their HI lowered.

TerenceNesbit

Professional

# 39 4/18/2011 11:54:25 AM

Good thing I don't choose my golfing partners based on their handicap. I could care less if I am playing with a high handicapper or a low handicapper. For that matter, I don't care if a playing partner takes a mulligan, an illegal drop and doesn't put in on their scorecard. Once again, I aint playing for money or competition. I don't gloat about a good scorecard by trying to "lord" it over someone who shoots a higher score.
Never played with anyone who "complains" about someone's handicap. All I really care about is having a good time golfing, getting and giving some encouragement to/from my golfing partners and generally being an enjoyable person to spend 3-4 hours with on the golf course. Gambling and drinking excessively on the course are detractors from me having a good time.

If anyone on here is the kind of golfer who gets annoyed because of my attitude in this matter or my opinion about handicaps is free to defriend me.

Some people do, or what their playing partner's say is their handicap index, and then they might not complain during the round but will complain to others that they play with or even just talk about golf with. If they complain about the other player's game, it may be based on their talking about their golf game, which is the same thing, if you ask me.

TerenceNesbit

Professional

# 40 4/18/2011 12:58:06 PM

Question is are you competitive or not.to each his own.All rules or not should be adhered to according to situation and or players agreement.I play with a lot of beginners whom cant dig a of a trap much less a divot so who cares.Without an excavotor their day can be frustrurating.If you are a competitor or play some tournys then the rules should apply including winter when the course ot tourny officials state so.Take advantage,even Jack has bragged on that subject.For just golfing pleasure again who cares wack at it cause you pay the bucks hit it more instead of less.Now why would any competitor not know the basic rules,seems thats part of of the game learning process.Heart of Texas{NOTE} If they dont like our attitude then change theirs.LOL

I'd love to play in tournaments but have not done so as of yet. I think that it is the whole point of playing sports in general (If you are good enough to play any other sport you would want to at least try out for a team, wouldn't you? This does not mean turn pro in all instances, it just means competing). I know the rules, but the idea of the rules being created is that they want everyone to follow them at all times. Do you add or subtract rules in other sports where the stats count? Just a question.

heartotexas

Professional Champion

# 41 4/18/2011 1:40:50 PM

Question is are you competitive or not.to each his own.All rules or not should be adhered to according to situation and or players agreement.I play with a lot of beginners whom cant dig a of a trap much less a divot so who cares.Without an excavotor their day can be frustrurating.If you are a competitor or play some tournys then the rules should apply including winter when the course ot tourny officials state so.Take advantage,even Jack has bragged on that subject.For just golfing pleasure again who cares wack at it cause you pay the bucks hit it more instead of less.Now why would any competitor not know the basic rules,seems thats part of of the game learning process.Heart of Texas{NOTE} If they dont like our attitude then change theirs.LOL

I'd love to play in tournaments but have not done so as of yet. I think that it is the whole point of playing sports in general (If you are good enough to play any other sport you would want to at least try out for a team, wouldn't you? This does not mean turn pro in all instances, it just means competing). I know the rules, but the idea of the rules being created is that they want everyone to follow them at all times. Do you add or subtract rules in other sports where the stats count? Just a question.

You of course forget about people who play to compete with themselves. I continue to play and try to get better, not for the sake of competition with anyone, but simply for the sake of doing better against myself.
Rules do not have to be in place just for competition. You have rules in solitaire, but you don't play it by the rules just to compete with someone, you play it that way because the rules provide the framework for how it is to be played.

From a competitive standpoint, golf, unlike basketball, penalizes both individuals and teams for rules violations. It is impossible in golf to cheat (break the rules) and have it work out in your favor.

This is really a silly discussion. If you play in competition golf, follow the rules and you will be more likely to succeed. If you don't play in competition golf, follow the rules, because that's how the game is played.
EOD.

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