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According to Gary Player, it is the weight shift. I find his arguments credible. His fantastic career, a little guy competing against the world's best, had to find a way to hit it as far and straight as Nicklaus and Palmer, et. al. He did that by getting himself in gymnast fit condition and then developing a better golf swing. He won 30 tournaments in America, 9 majors, and "countless" tournaments around the world, places where our best didn't bother to travel and compete with Player and others. If he had lived in the US instead of in Africa, VERY LIKELY he would have more majors than Nicklaus. He was a no-show at dozens of major tournaments he was eligible to enter.
When he found himself lagging back and losing distance, he cured that by over-compensating. He LAUNCHED himself after turning back and shifted through impact so aggressively that he had to take a step, "walking over" to maintain balance. And he says today that many amateurs would benefit from this, just do whatever it takes to stop lagging back and swinging on their back foot. I love his "strike a match" short game swing advice. Instead of decelerating, he suggests we accelerate the clubhead through all shots, even chips and sand shots. Strike a match! It works. There is no conflict between Hogan's "most important thing" and Player's. Hogan said it is the sequence, hips leading shoulders. Player says it is the weight shift. Well duh, those are the same thing! If you turn your hips toward the target before you swing, you MUST shift your weight onto your front leg. You can't pivot around your back leg. So we should be working on sequence. Turn, Shift, swing. If you turn and swing without shifting as at least 90% of amateurs do and if you have been doing that for years, the fix is going to be difficult and prolonged. It may take months because this is THE MOST PROFOUND swing change possible. You will need to completely erase your urge to swing as soon as you finish your backswing-- and replace that with different timing, a conscious shift of weight and turn of hips toward the target BEFORE your shoulders start. Most of us will need to "separate" our hips from our shoulders and some of us will need to do specific stretches before we can do it. I have my PT force my upraised knees down to either side while holding my opposite shoulder down flat. I hold something like my car bumper or a golf cart to stabilize my shoulders while I turn my hips as far as I can, hold, and do it again. Most teachers say the ONLY effective way to change our swing this profoundly is to retrain our subconscious mind. And that can be done ONLY with slow motion repetitions, just as Harvey Penick taught. You should get it absolutely right with lessons or a mirror and photos, then hit balls only a few yards while exaggerating the sequence. Eventually it will be the way you swing. But if you can separate even a little, wait that extra beat before you swing, you will hit it dramatically further and straighter! The reward will be dramatic and fun! Larry |
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| # 1 4/15/2013 8:18:02 PM |
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Your statement regarding Player winning more than Nicklaus is unfounded and ridiculous. Player won 1/2 as many majors and its not like he only played in 50% of the majors. If you want to make that argument look at the curious case of Walter Hagen who's record in majors exceeded Nicklaus.
You make some good points in most of your posts, but then you lose creditability by pushing the point too far. On top of winning 1/2 as many majors many players of that era considered Gary Player a cheater. As for me, I respect Player. He was better than Palmer and yet he doesn't get half the respect. |
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| # 2 4/15/2013 9:00:07 PM |
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Your statement regarding Player winning more than Nicklaus is unfounded and ridiculous. Player won 1/2 as many majors and its not like he only played in 50% of the majors. If you want to make that argument look at the curious case of Walter Hagen who's record in majors exceeded Nicklaus. You make some good points in most of your posts, but then you lose creditability by pushing the point too far. On top of winning 1/2 as many majors many players of that era considered Gary Player a cheater. As for me, I respect Player. He was better than Palmer and yet he doesn't get half the respect. You do have to wonder how many he could have won if he played here more often. It is amazing the stats on how many miles he put in over the years flying. I love his lessons. I replied in another post that I reach for my target, which is basically what Player does thus causing the step forward. When I get into a pull or a slice I really stretch out for my target and it forces me to take that one step. I do it just to get the feel back then back off on it a bit and I am dead straight and right on target. Have recently change my chipping to using my 7,8, and 9 irons more based on a lesson he game on the GC. Which one a person uses depends on how much run out is needed to get to the pin. This has improved my game a great deal because I can get within a 2 to 3 foot putt range by doing so. If the pin is near the front I then go to a wedge. Players bunker play is incredible, his tips have gotten me into much better play off the beach. |
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| # 3 4/16/2013 7:36:38 AM |
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Your statement regarding Player winning more than Nicklaus is unfounded and ridiculous. Player won 1/2 as many majors and its not like he only played in 50% of the majors. If you want to make that argument look at the curious case of Walter Hagen who's record in majors exceeded Nicklaus. You make some good points in most of your posts, but then you lose creditability by pushing the point too far. On top of winning 1/2 as many majors many players of that era considered Gary Player a cheater. As for me, I respect Player. He was better than Palmer and yet he doesn't get half the respect. You do have to wonder how many he could have won if he played here more often. It is amazing the stats on how many miles he put in over the years flying. I love his lessons. I replied in another post that I reach for my target, which is basically what Player does thus causing the step forward. When I get into a pull or a slice I really stretch out for my target and it forces me to take that one step. I do it just to get the feel back then back off on it a bit and I am dead straight and right on target. Have recently change my chipping to using my 7,8, and 9 irons more based on a lesson he game on the GC. Which one a person uses depends on how much run out is needed to get to the pin. This has improved my game a great deal because I can get within a 2 to 3 foot putt range by doing so. If the pin is near the front I then go to a wedge. Players bunker play is incredible, his tips have gotten me into much better play off the beach. I agree with you Pappy (and not just to disagree with LL). In this case I think the point is valid about Player and we can play "what if games" all day long about ANY career. In the case of Player I think he was one of the all timers and won all over the world. In those days, the majors weren't a "must play" event so he skipped a lot and was in his prime during many. My disclaimer here is that a quick view of my profile tells you that Player is one of my favorites, so this response comes with bias. I was lucky enough to play in an outing with him and talked to him at great length. He agreed he could have won more majors too had he played. As many as Jack... that's tough to say. |
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| # 4 4/16/2013 8:52:04 AM |
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At a quick glance he seemed to miss a grand total of 4 majors in his prime.
I think we can close the book on the whole "he would have caught Jack" argument. |
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| # 5 4/16/2013 8:56:15 AM |
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At a quick glance he seemed to miss a grand total of 4 majors in his prime. I think we can close the book on the whole "he would have caught Jack" argument. So now your saying he wouldn't have cought Jack but might have won the Grand Slam?! Interesting. Never thought about that one but I think that now puts him in the class of Bobby Jones. Well Done, LL. |
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| # 6 4/16/2013 10:02:39 AM |
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At a quick glance he seemed to miss a grand total of 4 majors in his prime. I think we can close the book on the whole "he would have caught Jack" argument. So now your saying he wouldn't have cought Jack but might have won the Grand Slam?! Interesting. Never thought about that one but I think that now puts him in the class of Bobby Jones. Well Done, LL. Keep dreaming. I do, however believe that Gary Player is the most under-rated golfer perhaps in the history of golf. He won as many majors as Hogan and yet does he get credit? He won more majors that Palmer and yet is considered second fiddle. |
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| # 7 4/16/2013 7:09:23 PM |
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At a quick glance he seemed to miss a grand total of 4 majors in his prime. I think we can close the book on the whole "he would have caught Jack" argument. So now your saying he wouldn't have cought Jack but might have won the Grand Slam?! Interesting. Never thought about that one but I think that now puts him in the class of Bobby Jones. Well Done, LL. My teaching pro says Player's swing is significantly better than Nicklaus, both in their prime. Nicklaus put his club up in a position that required significant manipulation to get it down and through on plane. Player's swing was much simpler and closer to the near technical perfection of Tiger and Scott, and thus less likely to break down. Player was a formidable competitor. He proved he knew how to win against anyone, anywhere. He worked harder on his game and he could do that because he was in FAR better physical condition than any of the top golfers of his day. So many think he was the best player of the last 100 years. At age 77, he still does 1000 sit-ups every day! Larry |
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| # 8 4/16/2013 8:26:33 PM |
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At a quick glance he seemed to miss a grand total of 4 majors in his prime. I think we can close the book on the whole "he would have caught Jack" argument. So now your saying he wouldn't have cought Jack but might have won the Grand Slam?! Interesting. Never thought about that one but I think that now puts him in the class of Bobby Jones. Well Done, LL. My teaching pro says Player's swing is significantly better than Nicklaus, both in their prime. Nicklaus put his club up in a position that required significant manipulation to get it down and through on plane. Player's swing was much simpler and closer to the near technical perfection of Tiger and Scott, and thus less likely to break down. Player was a formidable competitor. He proved he knew how to win against anyone, anywhere. He worked harder on his game and he could do that because he was in FAR better physical condition than any of the top golfers of his day. So many think he was the best player of the last 100 years. At age 77, he still does 1000 sit-ups every day! Larry Well there you go. It goes to show you that a technically perfect swing does not guarantee you perfection. I suppose I would take 18 majors and a slight imperfection than a perfect one and half as many majors. PS...Gary Player an all-time great, but nobody considers him #1...nobody. I can't decide if your golf pro is a teacher or a cult leader the way you wag your tail at his every word. My pro taught a major champion and you don't see me bowing at his every word. Here is just a suggestion...think for yourself. Technical perfection is unobtainable if you seek it it many ruin your game. I have a very good repeatable swing...it has its flaws but knowing them and my tendencies is what allows me to score low more often than not. I don't knock Gary Player or at least I don't mean too, but some of your statements are so far out there I have to comment. |
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| # 9 4/16/2013 8:41:23 PM |
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Here's a Gary Player story :
Several years ago, my brother and a couple guys from his golf league in Tampa were watching a seniors tournament at TPC Tampa. Gary player was in it. They were watching from just outside the back yard of one of the golf league guys' home which was right next to one of the greens. They had been there for a few hours and they all were drinking. So Gary gets to the green and is lining up a putt just feet away from these guys. So one of the guys says loud enough for Gary to hear, "Hey Bill, everyone that has had that same putt today has missed it left". Knowing the putt went slightly right. So Gary hits the putt, and misses it big time right! Then he turned and gave them a dirty look. I know, not a nice thing to do. But funny as hell if you ask me. Funny that such a great player (no pun intended) would listen to some yahoos greenside. Priceless ! |
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| # 10 4/16/2013 8:59:01 PM |
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Here's a Gary Player story : Several years ago, my brother and a couple guys from his golf league in Tampa were watching a seniors tournament at TPC Tampa. Gary player was in it. They were watching from just outside the back yard of one of the golf league guys' home which was right next to one of the greens. They had been there for a few hours and they all were drinking. So Gary gets to the green and is lining up a putt just feet away from these guys. So one of the guys says loud enough for Gary to hear, "Hey Bill, everyone that has had that same putt today has missed it left". Knowing the putt went slightly right. So Gary hits the putt, and misses it big time right! Then he turned and gave them a dirty look. I know, not a nice thing to do. But funny as hell if you ask me. Funny that such a great player (no pun intended) would listen to some yahoos greenside. Priceless ! "priceless" or "classless?" I think it was drunks acting like louts. Larry |
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| # 11 4/17/2013 9:36:54 AM |
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Well there you go. It goes to show you that a technically perfect swing does not guarantee you perfection. I suppose I would take 18 majors and a slight imperfection than a perfect one and half as many majors. PS...Gary Player an all-time great, but nobody considers him #1...nobody. I can't decide if your golf pro is a teacher or a cult leader the way you wag your tail at his every word. My pro taught a major champion and you don't see me bowing at his every word. Here is just a suggestion...think for yourself. Technical perfection is unobtainable if you seek it it many ruin your game. I have a very good repeatable swing...it has its flaws but knowing them and my tendencies is what allows me to score low more often than not. I don't knock Gary Player or at least I don't mean too, but some of your statements are so far out there I have to comment. I'll give you a win for the arguement on this one LL. I think Player is probably Top 10 material, but to put him next to the likes of Nicklaus and compare records, is just apples and oranges. As a person, he is truly one of the best golf ambassadors there is. As a player, he is not Top 5 but probably in the Top 10. Larry's tired arguement about perfect swings is just misguided. Perfect swings don't win tournaments; it's the makeup of the man. Otherwise, Tom Weiskoff would have 70 wins & 12 majors and Lee Trevino would have 5. Last time I checked, Furyk made a decent career having the worst golf swing on the planet next to Tommy Gainey (who also won). |
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| # 12 4/17/2013 10:57:12 AM |
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Well there you go. It goes to show you that a technically perfect swing does not guarantee you perfection. I suppose I would take 18 majors and a slight imperfection than a perfect one and half as many majors. PS...Gary Player an all-time great, but nobody considers him #1...nobody. I can't decide if your golf pro is a teacher or a cult leader the way you wag your tail at his every word. My pro taught a major champion and you don't see me bowing at his every word. Here is just a suggestion...think for yourself. Technical perfection is unobtainable if you seek it it many ruin your game. I have a very good repeatable swing...it has its flaws but knowing them and my tendencies is what allows me to score low more often than not. I don't knock Gary Player or at least I don't mean too, but some of your statements are so far out there I have to comment. I'll give you a win for the arguement on this one LL. I think Player is probably Top 10 material, but to put him next to the likes of Nicklaus and compare records, is just apples and oranges. As a person, he is truly one of the best golf ambassadors there is. As a player, he is not Top 5 but probably in the Top 10. Larry's tired arguement about perfect swings is just misguided. Perfect swings don't win tournaments; it's the makeup of the man. Otherwise, Tom Weiskoff would have 70 wins & 12 majors and Lee Trevino would have 5. Last time I checked, Furyk made a decent career having the worst golf swing on the planet next to Tommy Gainey (who also won). So what should we take from that attitude? What should someone wanting to develop a really good golf swing or play guitar better take from that? Give up? Just quit practicing? Should he abandon the "fundamentals" taught by his teacher? Golf is fun BECAUSE it is hard, only 1% of amateurs can swing correctly. If it were as easy as racquetball, there would be condos where there are golf courses. I just don't understand your logic. The golf swing is difficult to learn. So is the tennis serve and many other sports movements. So what do the best do? They work on it, hours and hours if necessary. They take lessons and instead of playing the course they do drills. Then when they do come out to play the course they hit it straight and long. They understand that good form equals fairways and greens without need to recover and hit from the treeline or dig it out of the rough. Let's not rationalize our failure. BTW, Furyk's swing, like Trevino's, looks superficially different, but it is technically near perfect where it counts, going through impact. That swing repeats enough to play world class golf. Furyk simply makes a bigger layoff to the plane after he takes it up steep. That is modern teaching. MANY young champions are being taught to do that because it works. Furyk hits fairways and greens. Larry |
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| # 13 4/17/2013 11:23:54 AM |
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So what should we take from that attitude? What should someone wanting to play guitar better take from that? Give up? Just quit practicing? Should he abandon the "fundamentals" taught by his teacher? I just don't understand your logic. The golf swing is difficult to learn. So is the tennis serve and many other sports movements. So what do the best do? They work on it, hours and hours if necessary. They take lessons and instead of playing the course they do drills. Then when they play the course they hit it straight and long. They understand that good form equals fairways and greens without need to recover and hit from the treeline or dig it out of the rough. Let's not rationalize our failure. Larry You keep relating this back to music and guitar, Larry, and while there are some similarities, they are two different animals. I have a bachelor's and master's degree in jazz guitar (though I normally play pop/rock...not much jazz to be had these days, at least for money...), and I play and teach guitar for a living. I've played on enormous stages and small ones, taught everyone from 6 years old to 70 years old...and I say this with FULL confidence: There are as many ways to play guitar as there are ways to swing a golf club. There are certain tenants of music...scales, chords, articulations/dynamics, rhythmic sensibility...that are true across the board. But HOW you accomplish those things is your own individual thing and your own journey. I do try to help students get to "proper" technique, because it does make doing certain things easier, but honestly if they sound good I don't mess with it much. Some of the greatest guitarists of all time...Jeff Beck, Clapton, Hendrix, Pat Metheny, Jimmy Page, Stevie Ray Vaughan, John Scofield...have (or had) downright AWFUL technique if you look at it through analytical eyes. But they got the job done better than anybody. In golf terms, the only thing that truly matters is that instant where the club contacts the ball. That's the ONLY part of the swing that actually determines where the ball goes. I don't give a rat's a** how you get there, as long as you get there in a good position. I've seen a lot of beautiful backswings hit the ball like utter crap. Trevino, Furyk, Miller Barber...yeah they have weird backswings, but you look at them at impact and they are simply better than most other players. In total control of the ball. Yes, a pretty backswing may HELP you get to a good impact position, but it won't do it for you. Like I said, if you get to a great impact position, I don't care if you loop it over your head and spin around twice before hitting it. It may not be pretty, but I want to let the ball flight be the judge of my ballstriking ability. Good impact equals proper ball flight. IMPACT is the most important thing in the golf swing. |
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| # 14 4/17/2013 11:45:51 AM |
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So what should we take from that attitude? What should someone wanting to develop a really good golf swing or play guitar better take from that? Give up? Just quit practicing? Should he abandon the "fundamentals" taught by his teacher? You are mostly arguing with yourself here. Did ANYONE suggest they give up? Did anyone suggest they should just quit practicing? They did not. So why are you arguing those points as if they did? [Actually, there is one person that suggested this and that was YOU in another thread, stating that if you aren't committed to swing putting the time in to obtain the 'perfect' golf swing you should take up another sport.] Connor hit the nail on the head. You have some good points now and then, but tend to then take them too far and then get all bent out of shape when your over-the-top comments are challenged. MANY people on here have brought this to your attention. You would do well to listen once in a while--be a little humble. This is actually a pretty fun place to be when you bring the attitude of being willing to listen and learn from the comments of others. |
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| # 15 4/17/2013 11:47:35 AM |
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So what should we take from that attitude? What should someone wanting to play guitar better take from that? Give up? Just quit practicing? Should he abandon the "fundamentals" taught by his teacher? I just don't understand your logic. The golf swing is difficult to learn. So is the tennis serve and many other sports movements. So what do the best do? They work on it, hours and hours if necessary. They take lessons and instead of playing the course they do drills. Then when they play the course they hit it straight and long. They understand that good form equals fairways and greens without need to recover and hit from the treeline or dig it out of the rough. Let's not rationalize our failure. Larry You keep relating this back to music and guitar, Larry, and while there are some similarities, they are two different animals. I have a bachelor's and master's degree in jazz guitar (though I normally play pop/rock...not much jazz to be had these days, at least for money...), and I play and teach guitar for a living. I've played on enormous stages and small ones, taught everyone from 6 years old to 70 years old...and I say this with FULL confidence: There are as many ways to play guitar as there are ways to swing a golf club. There are certain tenants of music...scales, chords, articulations/dynamics, rhythmic sensibility...that are true across the board. But HOW you accomplish those things is your own individual thing and your own journey. I do try to help students get to "proper" technique, because it does make doing certain things easier, but honestly if they sound good I don't mess with it much. Some of the greatest guitarists of all time...Jeff Beck, Clapton, Hendrix, Pat Metheny, Jimmy Page, Stevie Ray Vaughan, John Scofield...have (or had) downright AWFUL technique if you look at it through analytical eyes. But they got the job done better than anybody. In golf terms, the only thing that truly matters is that instant where the club contacts the ball. That's the ONLY part of the swing that actually determines where the ball goes. I don't give a rat's a** how you get there, as long as you get there in a good position. I've seen a lot of beautiful backswings hit the ball like utter crap. Trevino, Furyk, Miller Barber...yeah they have weird backswings, but you look at them at impact and they are simply better than most other players. In total control of the ball. Yes, a pretty backswing may HELP you get to a good impact position, but it won't do it for you. Like I said, if you get to a great impact position, I don't care if you loop it over your head and spin around twice before hitting it. It may not be pretty, but I want to let the ball flight be the judge of my ballstriking ability. Good impact equals proper ball flight. IMPACT is the most important thing in the golf swing. I took classic guitar lessons. I learned to read music, then the notes, then the chords and finally learned how to play scales and etudes. The teacher insisted that I learn the fundamentals because in the long run that is the shortcut to playing music. I read that Chet Atkins went to Andre Segovia in Spain to learn better technique-- LONG AFTER he had become a virtuoso studio player. Of course some have developed without doing it in the order above, but that is really the long way and they would all admit that. They SHOULD have done it right because they reached serious limitations with ingrained poor technique. Chet Atkins was an exception who wanted to fix that. My golf pro is also a serious and advanced guitar student. He takes guitar lessons from one of his golf swing students. He says the same personality attributes are necessary. Attention to detail and persistence, persistence, persistence! Hogan said it best about the golf swing. Hard Work is absolutely necessary to develop a good golf swing. If it feels natural, it is wrong. If it is easy, it is usually wrong. The golf swing is UNNATURAL, so it is difficult. And since golf is a hobby and few can justify the necessary work, good golf swings are rare. Only 1% of amateurs according to TPI, can even make the elementary transition weight shift. That means that 99% throw their arms and hands ahead of their hips and fight slice. Larry Larry |
