Johnny Miller commentary | USHandicap Classic

larryrsf Professional Champion
Go to Last Reply 52 Views 9 Replies 2 Likes
Watching the Palmer tournament this morning, ALL THREE of the leaders lay the club off and bring it down on plane, not as much as Furyk, but very noticeably. Tiger, Fowler, and Bradley do it. Bradley exaggerates it more than the others, taking it back to vertical and then laying it off very aggressively. This is the source of their late release, an extra 50+ yards distance off the tee! So ONCE in this entire tournament, Bradley hooked it a few yards and Miller says he can't understand what Bradley is doing with his backswing so vertical. WHAT??? The layoff of "flattening" move is classic modern teaching. This is what my pro has been taught to teach! Laying it off is the opposite of and best cure for the ubiquitous OTT slice that comes from getting it too steep, up over our head instead of down over our shoulders. I like Miller's commentary, but he really needs to drop in and watch modern lessons and videos. Even SLAP (Swing Like a Pro) included several pages on the "flattening" move from the top. Didn't Miller even see that? Larry
Don Freeman Professional Champion
# 1 3/25/2013 9:14:49 PM
Maybe I will have to watch again, but I just don't see Tiger laying the club off with this new cut swing of his. From my viewing angle, he takes the club back rather verticle, then opens his shoulders and goes over the top and finishes high. How can that swing be layed off? Sorry, I just don't see it.
dewsweeper Legend
# 2 3/26/2013 10:35:00 AM
It's nothing new ! Had been in use whether intentionally or not this move of flattening the left wrist in line with the club face at the top ( also tugging the right elbow close to the body ) will square the club face at impact.
larryrsf Professional Champion
# 3 3/26/2013 10:48:40 AM
Maybe I will have to watch again, but I just don't see Tiger laying the club off with this new cut swing of his. From my viewing angle, he takes the club back rather verticle, then opens his shoulders and goes over the top and finishes high. How can that swing be layed off? Sorry, I just don't see it. I freeze their swing at setup, then step through it frame-by-frame. On top you will see the club move back from the ball as it flattens down to the swing plane. That move forces the right elbow in and prepares the golfer to bring the club "down and under" in the "skipping a flat stone" feeling that top golfers describe. This move preserves the wrist set longer into the downswing for the late release that creates the clubhead speed for 50+ extra yards without extra effort. Have your teaching pro show you. But DON'T try it without a pro. If you try to flatten too soon in the backswing, you can't swing correctly. So they first make a good turn with arms and wrists held set, get it near vertical, then lift the club over their shoulder by rolling both forearms. I do it with my left hand and I am a lefty. My pro says he pushes it up and over with his left hand and he is a righty. Doesn't matter. Larry Larry
LyinLewis Legend
# 4 3/26/2013 10:59:20 AM
What Larry is referring to is not the typical "laid off" position that professionals speak about. The typical "Laid off" position is at the top of the swing having the clubhead point left of parallel. If I am not mistaken Larry is referring to bringing the club "under plane" on the down swing. Take a look at the photos below. I have drawn a line which extended through my club at address. Notice how the club is under that plane coming down into impact. This creates power. I don't call this "laid off" I just say that I am attacking the ball from under the plane.
larryrsf Professional Champion
# 5 3/26/2013 5:59:51 PM
What Larry is referring to is not the typical "laid off" position that professionals speak about. The typical "Laid off" position is at the top of the swing having the clubhead point left of parallel. If I am not mistaken Larry is referring to bringing the club "under plane" on the down swing. Take a look at the photos below. I have drawn a line which extended through my club at address. Notice how the club is under that plane coming down into impact. This creates power. I don't call this "laid off" I just say that I am attacking the ball from under the plane. No, you have it "crossed" on top. The clubshaft is not aligned with your forearm or the swing plane, but up too steep. From there it is more difficult to start down in the correct sequence. The layoff move is usually done by getting it vertical going back (when the arms are about shoulder high), and then rolling our forearms to point the butt at the ball or even beyond. You can see the clubhead move BACK, away from the ball, before the arms start down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.. Watch Ricky Fowler perform the modern golf swing. Larry
LyinLewis Legend
# 6 3/26/2013 7:59:58 PM
Larry, Tell you what. Your swing against mine. You name the dollar amount and we'll see who's swing stands the test. I don't know who your swing coach is, but there are many ways to skin a cat and my way is on plane. I would never copy Fowler's swing...but thats just me.
LyinLewis Legend
# 7 3/26/2013 8:21:52 PM
You point to Fowler, I suppose I would look at Jack Nicklaus' position. Did Jack hit the ball a long way and was he accurate? Listen no knock on your instructor, but I have seen you post about his one method instruction and let me tell you, that is a sure way to ruin. We all have a natural swing and a good instructor finds your best swing...not mold you into the swing he likes. The best swing coaches teach the player how to find "their" swing. I have watched Fowler swing in person and he is a super freak when it comes to flexibility and his redirection of the club which your pro applauds in my opinion and the opinion of many others is not consistent...thus Rickie is is not chalking up a bunch of wins.
bmoody16 Professional Champion
# 8 3/26/2013 10:37:48 PM
Larry, Tell you what. Your swing against mine. You name the dollar amount and we'll see who's swing stands the test. I don't know who your swing coach is, but there are many ways to skin a cat and my way is on plane. I would never copy Fowler's swing...but thats just me. Totally agree.....and I don't think what Tiger does would be called "laid off" either. They certainly all create drag, and drop into the slot keeping their right are close to the side. You have to do that to come from the inside and create power. Most of the young guys I see swing look perfect at the top like Tiger. They all use video now to perfect their angels. Fowler doesn't use video and goes by feel. If this works, that's great, but I do better when I see my swing and visualize what my angels need to look like.
larryrsf Professional Champion
# 9 3/27/2013 1:16:30 PM
Larry, Tell you what. Your swing against mine. You name the dollar amount and we'll see who's swing stands the test. I don't know who your swing coach is, but there are many ways to skin a cat and my way is on plane. I would never copy Fowler's swing...but thats just me. Totally agree.....and I don't think what Tiger does would be called "laid off" either. They certainly all create drag, and drop into the slot keeping their right are close to the side. You have to do that to come from the inside and create power. Most of the young guys I see swing look perfect at the top like Tiger. They all use video now to perfect their angels. Fowler doesn't use video and goes by feel. If this works, that's great, but I do better when I see my swing and visualize what my angels need to look like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.. Since about 90% of amateurs fail to achieve a correct top position, they downswing OTT. Their top position does not trigger their hips to lead. There are other reasons for a poor top position and incorrect downswing sequence having to do with posture and shoulder turn, but primarily the too steep backswing is what comes to every teaching pro. So first he needs to help them hit it straight, stop slicing. That is achieved by helping them get their club flatter on top. So they teach us to be MORE LIKE Fowler and Watson and dozens of others who have learned to lay it off. Not exactly of course. BTW, Jack Nicklaus made several serious backswing errors. Occasionally he sliced it across two fairways when he failed to make the compensations that were necessary. Larry

Professional Champion

52 Views 9 Replies 2 Likes

Watching the Palmer tournament this morning, ALL THREE of the leaders lay the club off and bring it down on plane, not as much as Furyk, but very noticeably. Tiger, Fowler, and Bradley do it. Bradley exaggerates it more than the others, taking it back to vertical and then laying it off very aggressively. This is the source of their late release, an extra 50+ yards distance off the tee!

So ONCE in this entire tournament, Bradley hooked it a few yards and Miller says he can't understand what Bradley is doing with his backswing so vertical. WHAT??? The layoff of "flattening" move is classic modern teaching. This is what my pro has been taught to teach! Laying it off is the opposite of and best cure for the ubiquitous OTT slice that comes from getting it too steep, up over our head instead of down over our shoulders.

I like Miller's commentary, but he really needs to drop in and watch modern lessons and videos. Even SLAP (Swing Like a Pro) included several pages on the "flattening" move from the top. Didn't Miller even see that?

Larry

Don Freeman

Professional Champion

# 1 3/25/2013 9:14:49 PM

Maybe I will have to watch again, but I just don't see Tiger laying the club off with this new cut swing of his. From my viewing angle, he takes the club back rather verticle, then opens his shoulders and goes over the top and finishes high. How can that swing be layed off? Sorry, I just don't see it.

dewsweeper

Legend

# 2 3/26/2013 10:35:00 AM

It's nothing new !

Had been in use whether intentionally or not this move of flattening the left wrist in line with the club face at the top ( also tugging the right elbow close to the body ) will square the club face at impact.

larryrsf

Professional Champion

# 3 3/26/2013 10:48:40 AM

Maybe I will have to watch again, but I just don't see Tiger laying the club off with this new cut swing of his. From my viewing angle, he takes the club back rather verticle, then opens his shoulders and goes over the top and finishes high. How can that swing be layed off? Sorry, I just don't see it.

I freeze their swing at setup, then step through it frame-by-frame. On top you will see the club move back from the ball as it flattens down to the swing plane. That move forces the right elbow in and prepares the golfer to bring the club "down and under" in the "skipping a flat stone" feeling that top golfers describe. This move preserves the wrist set longer into the downswing for the late release that creates the clubhead speed for 50+ extra yards without extra effort. Have your teaching pro show you.

But DON'T try it without a pro. If you try to flatten too soon in the backswing, you can't swing correctly. So they first make a good turn with arms and wrists held set, get it near vertical, then lift the club over their shoulder by rolling both forearms. I do it with my left hand and I am a lefty. My pro says he pushes it up and over with his left hand and he is a righty. Doesn't matter.

Larry

Larry

LyinLewis

Legend

# 4 3/26/2013 10:59:20 AM

What Larry is referring to is not the typical "laid off" position that professionals speak about. The typical "Laid off" position is at the top of the swing having the clubhead point left of parallel.

If I am not mistaken Larry is referring to bringing the club "under plane" on the down swing.

Take a look at the photos below. I have drawn a line which extended through my club at address. Notice how the club is under that plane coming down into impact. This creates power.

I don't call this "laid off" I just say that I am attacking the ball from under the plane.

larryrsf

Professional Champion

# 5 3/26/2013 5:59:51 PM

What Larry is referring to is not the typical "laid off" position that professionals speak about. The typical "Laid off" position is at the top of the swing having the clubhead point left of parallel.

If I am not mistaken Larry is referring to bringing the club "under plane" on the down swing.

Take a look at the photos below. I have drawn a line which extended through my club at address. Notice how the club is under that plane coming down into impact. This creates power.

I don't call this "laid off" I just say that I am attacking the ball from under the plane.

No, you have it "crossed" on top. The clubshaft is not aligned with your forearm or the swing plane, but up too steep. From there it is more difficult to start down in the correct sequence.

The layoff move is usually done by getting it vertical going back (when the arms are about shoulder high), and then rolling our forearms to point the butt at the ball or even beyond. You can see the clubhead move BACK, away from the ball, before the arms start down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v..

Watch Ricky Fowler perform the modern golf swing.

Larry

LyinLewis

Legend

# 6 3/26/2013 7:59:58 PM

Larry,
Tell you what. Your swing against mine. You name the dollar amount and we'll see who's swing stands the test. I don't know who your swing coach is, but there are many ways to skin a cat and my way is on plane.

I would never copy Fowler's swing...but thats just me.

LyinLewis

Legend

# 7 3/26/2013 8:21:52 PM

You point to Fowler, I suppose I would look at Jack Nicklaus' position. Did Jack hit the ball a long way and was he accurate?

Listen no knock on your instructor, but I have seen you post about his one method instruction and let me tell you, that is a sure way to ruin. We all have a natural swing and a good instructor finds your best swing...not mold you into the swing he likes.

The best swing coaches teach the player how to find "their" swing.

I have watched Fowler swing in person and he is a super freak when it comes to flexibility and his redirection of the club which your pro applauds in my opinion and the opinion of many others is not consistent...thus Rickie is is not chalking up a bunch of wins.

bmoody16

Professional Champion

# 8 3/26/2013 10:37:48 PM

Larry,
Tell you what. Your swing against mine. You name the dollar amount and we'll see who's swing stands the test. I don't know who your swing coach is, but there are many ways to skin a cat and my way is on plane.

I would never copy Fowler's swing...but thats just me.

Totally agree.....and I don't think what Tiger does would be called "laid off" either. They certainly all create drag, and drop into the slot keeping their right are close to the side. You have to do that to come from the inside and create power. Most of the young guys I see swing look perfect at the top like Tiger. They all use video now to perfect their angels. Fowler doesn't use video and goes by feel. If this works, that's great, but I do better when I see my swing and visualize what my angels need to look like.

larryrsf

Professional Champion

# 9 3/27/2013 1:16:30 PM

Larry,
Tell you what. Your swing against mine. You name the dollar amount and we'll see who's swing stands the test. I don't know who your swing coach is, but there are many ways to skin a cat and my way is on plane.

I would never copy Fowler's swing...but thats just me.

Totally agree.....and I don't think what Tiger does would be called "laid off" either. They certainly all create drag, and drop into the slot keeping their right are close to the side. You have to do that to come from the inside and create power. Most of the young guys I see swing look perfect at the top like Tiger. They all use video now to perfect their angels. Fowler doesn't use video and goes by feel. If this works, that's great, but I do better when I see my swing and visualize what my angels need to look like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v..

Since about 90% of amateurs fail to achieve a correct top position, they downswing OTT. Their top position does not trigger their hips to lead. There are other reasons for a poor top position and incorrect downswing sequence having to do with posture and shoulder turn, but primarily the too steep backswing is what comes to every teaching pro. So first he needs to help them hit it straight, stop slicing. That is achieved by helping them get their club flatter on top. So they teach us to be MORE LIKE Fowler and Watson and dozens of others who have learned to lay it off. Not exactly of course.

BTW, Jack Nicklaus made several serious backswing errors. Occasionally he sliced it across two fairways when he failed to make the compensations that were necessary.

Larry

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