Rules Question | USHandicap Classic

gsollars LowIndex
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So, today I played in a small individual tournament at pine Crest Golf Club. I shot an 85 losing seven (7) strokes on just two holes. I made a nine (9) on number one, a par five, after playing a wrong ball and subsequently rinsing the correct ball. I also made a triple on a short par four when I yanked my tee shot into a tree left of the fairway and the ball caromed into the pond left of the tree. The spot is left of the trees between 138 and 180 yards to the green on the attached picture. The tee shot is not a long shot, about 180 yards to carry a creek/pond that extends up the left side of the hole. My ball carried the creek, smacked a tree on the left hand side of the fairway and fell into the pond left of the trees and fairway. The guy I was playing with wanted me to hit a provisional. I told him there was no need; if I can’t find or retrieve my ball I will play from where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. He argued with me and said that if I couldn’t find my ball that I would have to play it as a lost ball with a resultant stroke and distance penalty. I told him that wasn’t correct. I could see that my ball had gone into the hazard. He again said: “yea, but if you can’t find it in the hazard then it’s a lost ball.” This guy is one of those guys that thinks that if you cannot convince someone you are right, you aren’t talking loud enough. I finally just told him; I’m playing from up there, I know the rule. He finally let it go but I thought there might be some interest in this interpretation of rule 26. It’s really fairly simple. Keeping the point that the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard between the hole, and me I dropped a ball and played on. I flushed and pulled a 6-iron and hit that one into a tree also left of the fairway leaving me no shot and had to chip out to the fairway. I went on to make a seven (7), my second big hole of the day. Anyway, has anyone ever had to take a stroke and distance penalty for a lost ball in a hazard? I seem to remember from “Decisions on the Rules of Golf” that if there is reasonable evidence that the ball went in the hazard you can assume the ball went in the hazard, even if you can’t find it. In this case, there was clear evidence that the ball went in the hazard (I saw it go in). But this guy was convinced that if you can’t find the ball and retrieve it from the hazard, you have to proceed as you would for a lost ball. Comments?
lpj0 Professional Champion
# 1 9/27/2013 10:06:47 AM
I will assume you were reasonably certain your ball went into the hazard (water.) Then, it sounds like you were correct if it was yellow staked. If it was red, then 2 club lengths no closer to the hole.
dewsweeper Legend
# 2 9/27/2013 10:19:12 AM
I used to play with a group of guys whom interpret the rules according to their mental capacity. And strangely enough, the lost ball interpretation in the hazard is the same as your playing partner. I since disengaged with that group because they also insist on play for a few bucks each time. I will not fork over my dollars because their interpretation on the rules of golf.
JayPet Legend
# 3 9/27/2013 10:25:14 AM
A water hazard is never stroke and distance unless it's sitting out of bounds. The guy you played with is a moron. I would've been DQ'd from your tournament because I would've beat the guy senseless with my driver if he started that crap on me. I'm pretty certain that bludgeoning someone isn't a stroke a distance penalty either, but it's probably at least a 1 stroke penalty.
Vincedaddy Legend
# 4 9/27/2013 11:36:12 AM
A water hazard is never stroke and distance unless it's sitting out of bounds. The guy you played with is a moron. I would've been DQ'd from your tournament because I would've beat the guy senseless with my driver if he started that crap on me. I'm pretty certain that bludgeoning someone isn't a stroke a distance penalty either, but it's probably at least a 1 stroke penalty. Idiot bludgeoning falls under the loose impediment rules. Only a penalty if said idiot is standing in a hazard. If he is through the green SWING IT LIKE A PRO!
JayPet Legend
# 5 9/27/2013 11:53:40 AM
A water hazard is never stroke and distance unless it's sitting out of bounds. The guy you played with is a moron. I would've been DQ'd from your tournament because I would've beat the guy senseless with my driver if he started that crap on me. I'm pretty certain that bludgeoning someone isn't a stroke a distance penalty either, but it's probably at least a 1 stroke penalty. Idiot bludgeoning falls under the loose impediment rules. Only a penalty if said idiot is standing in a hazard. If he is through the green SWING IT LIKE A PRO! Thanks for clarifying Vince. It's been a while since I had to cite myself that rule. Thanks goodness I keep better company these days on the golf course.
Mark Simmons Legend
# 6 9/27/2013 12:04:23 PM
Gilbert, the key is your statement " I could see that my ball had gone into the hazard." The only time you would have a stroke and distance penalty after hitting it in a water hazard is "In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard". Under those circumstances "the player must proceed under Rule 27-1", which imposses a stroke and distance penalty. While not germane to your core question, the picture you posted made me wonder whether the area where your ball went in was identified as a water hazard or a lateral water hazard? In my mind it should be a lateral water hazard, which gives you an additional option under Rule 26-1c, but I've seen cases with a continuous body of water that you first cross then runs beside you was all given water hazard status, none of it was given lateral water hazard status.
HOGAN418 Professional Champion
# 7 9/27/2013 1:01:02 PM
27-2. Provisional Ball • a. Procedure If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball. Look at the word "may"- which means you don't have to or optional.... And Jaypet.... use of a machete on the golf course for lethal purposes is now legal.. it's called the "Rory Sabbatini" rule..
JayPet Legend
# 8 9/27/2013 1:11:08 PM
27-2. Provisional Ball • a. Procedure If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball. Look at the word "may"- which means you don't have to or optional.... And Jaypet.... use of a machete on the golf course for lethal purposes is now legal.. it's called the "Rory Sabbatini" rule.. Gilbert, You were right on this. There is no stroke and distance penalty unless the left water is out of bounds. You can hit a provisional, BTW, any time, and it really doesn't matter in this case because you can drop the ball exactly where you stated it should be dropped. Based on the picture, I'm guessing you have Red stakes along the left side water because it's lateral, but even if we want to split hairs, you were right in the assessment. You still need to bitch slap that whiny guy!
gsollars LowIndex
# 9 9/27/2013 3:44:41 PM
Gilbert, the key is your statement " I could see that my ball had gone into the hazard." The only time you would have a stroke and distance penalty after hitting it in a water hazard is "In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard". Under those circumstances "the player must proceed under Rule 27-1", which imposses a stroke and distance penalty. While not germane to your core question, the picture you posted made me wonder whether the area where your ball went in was identified as a water hazard or a lateral water hazard? In my mind it should be a lateral water hazard, which gives you an additional option under Rule 26-1c, but I've seen cases with a continuous body of water that you first cross then runs beside you was all given water hazard status, none of it was given lateral water hazard status. It is a lateral hazard but since I had the option, I chose to just keep the point that the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard between me and the hole, go back far enough and drop in a relatively level spot. That was a more level lie than if I had chosen the two clubs from the point that the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. That lie would have been on a slope and the the ball likely would have rolled back into the hazard. After dropping twice, I would have been required to place the ball where it landed on the slope. That would have given me a sidehill lie and actually a little closer to the trees. So, I chose the best of the two options that I believed gave me the best chance to get my ball back in play and minimize my score on that hole. That I then proceeded to hit that shot into another tree and still ended up unable to play at the green was not a function of my decision on how to take my penalty. It was just another bad swing like the one that got me into the situation in the first place.

gsollars

LowIndex

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So, today I played in a small individual tournament at pine Crest Golf Club. I shot an 85 losing seven (7) strokes on just two holes. I made a nine (9) on number one, a par five, after playing a wrong ball and subsequently rinsing the correct ball.

I also made a triple on a short par four when I yanked my tee shot into a tree left of the fairway and the ball caromed into the pond left of the tree. The spot is left of the trees between 138 and 180 yards to the green on the attached picture.

The tee shot is not a long shot, about 180 yards to carry a creek/pond that extends up the left side of the hole. My ball carried the creek, smacked a tree on the left hand side of the fairway and fell into the pond left of the trees and fairway. The guy I was playing with wanted me to hit a provisional. I told him there was no need; if I can’t find or retrieve my ball I will play from where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. He argued with me and said that if I couldn’t find my ball that I would have to play it as a lost ball with a resultant stroke and distance penalty. I told him that wasn’t correct. I could see that my ball had gone into the hazard. He again said: “yea, but if you can’t find it in the hazard then it’s a lost ball.” This guy is one of those guys that thinks that if you cannot convince someone you are right, you aren’t talking loud enough. I finally just told him; I’m playing from up there, I know the rule. He finally let it go but I thought there might be some interest in this interpretation of rule 26. It’s really fairly simple. Keeping the point that the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard between the hole, and me I dropped a ball and played on. I flushed and pulled a 6-iron and hit that one into a tree also left of the fairway leaving me no shot and had to chip out to the fairway. I went on to make a seven (7), my second big hole of the day.

Anyway, has anyone ever had to take a stroke and distance penalty for a lost ball in a hazard? I seem to remember from “Decisions on the Rules of Golf” that if there is reasonable evidence that the ball went in the hazard you can assume the ball went in the hazard, even if you can’t find it. In this case, there was clear evidence that the ball went in the hazard (I saw it go in). But this guy was convinced that if you can’t find the ball and retrieve it from the hazard, you have to proceed as you would for a lost ball. Comments?

lpj0

Professional Champion

# 1 9/27/2013 10:06:47 AM

I will assume you were reasonably certain your ball went into the hazard (water.) Then, it sounds like you were correct if it was yellow staked. If it was red, then 2 club lengths no closer to the hole.

dewsweeper

Legend

# 2 9/27/2013 10:19:12 AM

I used to play with a group of guys whom interpret the rules according to their mental capacity.
And strangely enough, the lost ball interpretation in the hazard is the same as your playing partner.
I since disengaged with that group because they also insist on play for a few bucks each time. I will not fork over my dollars because their interpretation on the rules of golf.

JayPet

Legend

# 3 9/27/2013 10:25:14 AM

A water hazard is never stroke and distance unless it's sitting out of bounds. The guy you played with is a moron. I would've been DQ'd from your tournament because I would've beat the guy senseless with my driver if he started that crap on me. I'm pretty certain that bludgeoning someone isn't a stroke a distance penalty either, but it's probably at least a 1 stroke penalty.

Vincedaddy

Legend

# 4 9/27/2013 11:36:12 AM

A water hazard is never stroke and distance unless it's sitting out of bounds. The guy you played with is a moron. I would've been DQ'd from your tournament because I would've beat the guy senseless with my driver if he started that crap on me. I'm pretty certain that bludgeoning someone isn't a stroke a distance penalty either, but it's probably at least a 1 stroke penalty.

Idiot bludgeoning falls under the loose impediment rules. Only a penalty if said idiot is standing in a hazard. If he is through the green SWING IT LIKE A PRO!

JayPet

Legend

# 5 9/27/2013 11:53:40 AM

A water hazard is never stroke and distance unless it's sitting out of bounds. The guy you played with is a moron. I would've been DQ'd from your tournament because I would've beat the guy senseless with my driver if he started that crap on me. I'm pretty certain that bludgeoning someone isn't a stroke a distance penalty either, but it's probably at least a 1 stroke penalty.

Idiot bludgeoning falls under the loose impediment rules. Only a penalty if said idiot is standing in a hazard. If he is through the green SWING IT LIKE A PRO!

Thanks for clarifying Vince. It's been a while since I had to cite myself that rule. Thanks goodness I keep better company these days on the golf course.

Mark Simmons

Legend

# 6 9/27/2013 12:04:23 PM

Gilbert, the key is your statement " I could see that my ball had gone into the hazard." The only time you would have a stroke and distance penalty after hitting it in a water hazard is "In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard". Under those circumstances "the player must proceed under Rule 27-1", which imposses a stroke and distance penalty.

While not germane to your core question, the picture you posted made me wonder whether the area where your ball went in was identified as a water hazard or a lateral water hazard? In my mind it should be a lateral water hazard, which gives you an additional option under Rule 26-1c, but I've seen cases with a continuous body of water that you first cross then runs beside you was all given water hazard status, none of it was given lateral water hazard status.

HOGAN418

Professional Champion

# 7 9/27/2013 1:01:02 PM

27-2. Provisional Ball
• a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

Look at the word "may"- which means you don't have to or optional....

And Jaypet.... use of a machete on the golf course for lethal purposes is now legal.. it's called the "Rory Sabbatini" rule..

JayPet

Legend

# 8 9/27/2013 1:11:08 PM

27-2. Provisional Ball
• a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

Look at the word "may"- which means you don't have to or optional....

And Jaypet.... use of a machete on the golf course for lethal purposes is now legal.. it's called the "Rory Sabbatini" rule..

Gilbert,

You were right on this. There is no stroke and distance penalty unless the left water is out of bounds. You can hit a provisional, BTW, any time, and it really doesn't matter in this case because you can drop the ball exactly where you stated it should be dropped.

Based on the picture, I'm guessing you have Red stakes along the left side water because it's lateral, but even if we want to split hairs, you were right in the assessment.

You still need to bitch slap that whiny guy!

gsollars

LowIndex

# 9 9/27/2013 3:44:41 PM

Gilbert, the key is your statement " I could see that my ball had gone into the hazard." The only time you would have a stroke and distance penalty after hitting it in a water hazard is "In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard". Under those circumstances "the player must proceed under Rule 27-1", which imposses a stroke and distance penalty.

While not germane to your core question, the picture you posted made me wonder whether the area where your ball went in was identified as a water hazard or a lateral water hazard? In my mind it should be a lateral water hazard, which gives you an additional option under Rule 26-1c, but I've seen cases with a continuous body of water that you first cross then runs beside you was all given water hazard status, none of it was given lateral water hazard status.

It is a lateral hazard but since I had the option, I chose to just keep the point that the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard between me and the hole, go back far enough and drop in a relatively level spot. That was a more level lie than if I had chosen the two clubs from the point that the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. That lie would have been on a slope and the the ball likely would have rolled back into the hazard. After dropping twice, I would have been required to place the ball where it landed on the slope. That would have given me a sidehill lie and actually a little closer to the trees. So, I chose the best of the two options that I believed gave me the best chance to get my ball back in play and minimize my score on that hole. That I then proceeded to hit that shot into another tree and still ended up unable to play at the green was not a function of my decision on how to take my penalty. It was just another bad swing like the one that got me into the situation in the first place.

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